In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. Hi, I have both. As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. All rights reserved. We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. Many do not discover the gun thats right for them as easily as you have (if they ever do)! The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. The 45 1911 did just that. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. Reality. When the cavalry at the time switched to the .45 round, the round was effective in doing enough damage to put them down more effectively. I also own both my fathers series 70 .45 (very accurate, low recoil due to mass, gunsmith tuned trigger that feels like butter, and extra fat grips) And a Kahr K40 (small, easy to conceal, but has a HORRENDOUS trigger pull and snappy recoil). to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. Glocks are cheap and reliable. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Temporary cavity is often grossly overrated as a wounding factor, but has historically been one of the primary methods for measuring effectiveness. The one that traveled the furthest was looking back over its shoulder and was hit in the muzzle. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. Anyone using the term bullets to discuss weapon capacity knows little about firearms and has no business writing policy.on them. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. We had a good chuckle out of that one. Make your best shot number one. Involved in a shooting with my partner. When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. Now as far as the technology of rounds go, technology has improved for all of the basic calibers including 45 so there is no advantage there for the 9. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. Ben, enlightened folk like you (and myself) understand that politics is ALWAYS at play on some level!! With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. Fair testing without the bias of budgets and the need to carry what every one else is carrying would be quite refreshing and lend more to the safety of the officer or soldier who may be fighting his or her life. I do like the capacity of the 9mm for in town carry and lighter weight than my Govt model 45s. Example; a bb to the eyeball is very effective. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. Damage: 22 per pellet. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. The bullet lands in the same place because the entire situation and milieu is what determines it. Mayo Clinic So any caliber is better than none. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. When dealing with a highly motivated target, milliseconds matter. Reddit But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp Different bullets and guns have different patterns. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? Please dont send me any hate mail. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. Was the 357 mag. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. Im 73 yoa. All righty then, I started with 38 caliber revolvers in the early 70s, 53 yrs later, since few people carry revolvers, capacity, I have bounced back and forth and keep ammo for both 9mm and 45. This is exactly what I said above. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. No regrets. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. Millenials and their bias arguments. Really late to the discussion. Creatine is an amino acid located mostly in your body's muscles as well as in the brain. Your shot placement will be perfect. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. Oh yeah, I long forgot where I read it. I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? I have several. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. At 880 fps a 230 grains projectile has 395 foot pounds of muzzle energy. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. There is no substitute for experience. He eventually was taken off life support 4 days later, open casket funeral. But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. I love it. I find that there is a difference when using 9mm vs .45acp. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). and Privacy Policy. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. Look at the Walter Scott shooting. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. Even later to the conversation but figured Id throw my ring in the hate. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. The fact is, 9mm is fast and cheap, .45acp is big and just as effective if not more, given the wound channel is gonna be much larger than that of a 9mm. Whether it hits the shoulder, the leg, arm, hip, whatever. But whats the long term average? Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. Adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma cyst fluid can trigger If I knew for certain I was going to use my gun Id pack the .45 all the time. In response to this, ammunition makers began to design Hollowpoint bullets which would expand in the air during flight. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. They should have several different handguns depending on the shoot I myself at 6 to 200 pounds and have a large chance by far the best pistol Ive ever shot is the 1911. It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. Rhee explained that the more massive the projectile, the more severe the wound. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. Also, do you love this debate on the various handgun calibers? The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. There ya go compromise just carry both. very obvious. They also have a budget. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. Shot placement was nearly identical. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. Category:Human body My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. 9mm beats .45acp. Owned a model 29 .357 With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. Damage: 23. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el You do your failure drill. Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. The beautiful country in south east Asia. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. I like all of them. Spend the little extra money and get the 5.56 chambered AR so you can safely shoot the higher pressure and accurate 5.56 ammunition and leave the .223 in the store. In the past, one of the standard tests performed to assess bullet and cartridge performance was the penetration of pine boards of various thicknesses. Thank you. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. Anyone actually seen the effect of .45 jhp? | 1911Forum Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. .45 ACP vs 9mm: Which Is Better? - Gun Digest When Does a .380 Beat The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. So if my pill hit my target in a less than optimal body section with ball ammo, Ill opt for the bigger ball every time. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. Okay all handgun are garbage. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. Anyone who has seen Clint Eastwoods Dirty Harry movies is familiar with Sergeant Callahans favorite sidekick, his .44 magnum revolver. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. But nearly worthless in real world situations. So many guns so little time! 0.38" Special P, 158 gr non-expanding bullet will, unless it strikes a bone, pass straight through a human body. I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. Everyone should buy a magnum-powered handgun in .357 or larger caliber and feel completely secure that he or she has the best stopping power. You get the idea. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). Symptoms Vital organs sit deep within the human body, so penetration and permanent cavity volume are important factors. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. What a joke! Also, the 9mm cartridges are less expensive. A pistol just sucks in that situation. If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. Physiology, Acid Base Balance WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. If you havent got JHP or ballistic tip bullets in the 9mm gun your in trouble. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! Ballistic gel is a joke and not a valid substitute for actual flesh and bone. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. Both forget one major factor. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. Once you run out of rounds, youre done. I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. However, from close enough range you could manage. As Sir Isaac Newton pointed out a few centuries ago, for every action theres an equal reaction in the opposite direction. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. WebAs shown in Fig. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. Bob. Penetrative powers of various types of ammunition - Ballistics Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. Yes, I will agree that air resistance is constantly at work against a bullet, thereby slowing it down as it travels toward its intended target. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. The National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful special interest groups in America. Heating effects, occurring mostly around 2.45 GHz (which is the frequency used in microwave ovens) Ionizing effects, which can damage human body and cells; Here is a picture of how the radiowaves penetrate the human body according to the frequency. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. But you have not reached the mark to replace that recoil spring. Theres been many people shot and continue. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. Chris Bartocci on a YouTube video explains why MARSOC went away from this 1911. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . Muscle memory is great thing. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their firearms. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). Three State-Of-The-Art .45 ACP Cartridges - Guns and Ammo Spread the word; knowledge is power! 45 ACP I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. Garand Thumb 2.84M subscribers 4.2M views 1 year ago 9mm vs 45 ACP, the age old debate and the one that In my own personal EXPERIENCE the .45 tends to put the assailant down with ONE OR TWO rounds. Just bless his little Prsident heart. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. Startle affect. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. A century? 10mm. The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. Love reading your stuff. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. Why dont these experts just admit that they prefer Glocks and let it go at that? I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. style Tommy Gun I also could not afford the astronomical price (astronomical in my current budget) shops are now asking for a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. Regards Jim, Sorry for the typos are you speak to text because I cant text like my child. That has been the best comment so far. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. Where aim for the middle of the whole body. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises.